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Dechreuodd y
cyfarfod am 09:34.
The meeting began at 09:34.
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Cyflwyniadau,
Ymddiheuriadau a Dirprwyon
Introductions, Apologies and Substitutions
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[1]
David
Rees: Good morning. Can
I welcome Members and the public to this morning’s session of
the Children, Young People and Education Committee? Before we go on
to the business of the morning, can I do some housekeeping? Can I
remind Members, please, to ensure that your mobile phones are off
or on silent, and any other electronic equipment that may interfere
with the broadcasting equipment? Can I also remind you that
there’s no scheduled fire alarm this morning, so, if one does
occur, please follow the directions of the ushers. The meeting is
bilingual, so if you need the translation from Welsh to English,
there is simultaneous translation available on the headphones on
channel 1. If you need amplification, that’s also available,
but that’s on channel 2. We’ve received apologies from
Ann Jones, John Griffiths and Bethan Jenkins, and we’ve not
been informed of any substitutes. So, we’ll now go on to the
business of the day.
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Craffu ar
Adroddiad Blynyddol y Comisiynydd Plant
Scrutiny of the Children's Commissioners Annual Report
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[2]
David
Rees: Can I welcome the
Children’s Commissioner for Wales, Sally Holland? Can you
introduce your colleagues?
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[3]
Dr
Holland: Yes. On my right,
I’ve got Eleri Thomas, who’s the deputy
Children’s Commissioner for Wales, and Hywel Dafydd,
who’s my public affairs officer.
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[4]
David
Rees: Thank you.
You’ve obviously published your report this morning, and we
very much appreciate having sight of that—it gave us an
opportunity to prepare for today. So, thank you for that.
We’re going to give you a couple of minutes to introduce the
issues you may wish to raise, and then we’ll go into
questions, if that’s okay with yourself.
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[5]
Dr
Holland: Diolch yn fawr. Bore da, bawb. Rwy’n falch iawn i gael
bod yma gyda chi i gyd y bore yma.
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Dr
Holland: Thank you very
much. Good morning, everyone. I’m very pleased to be here
with you all this morning.
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[6]
Good
morning, everyone. I’m very pleased to be with you all today.
I’m presenting to you my annual report, which, of course,
sets out the final year of my predecessor, Keith Towler. As
you’ll be aware, it provides information about the everyday
core work of my organisation—the case work, the policy work,
and our range of participation programmes, as well as our more
thematic work: our reports on wheelchair access, short breaks,
Operation Pallial, et cetera. I think this work illustrates the
range of work of my office, which is a challenge, but also a
necessity if I’m going to fulfil my remit as commissioner for
all children and young people in Wales. I do look forward to
discussing this report with you this morning, but I thought it
would be helpful to start with a few—and I promise, just a
few—opening remarks about how I’ve approached my role
as commissioner, so far, six months into the role, and my response
to the independent review of my office by Dr Shooter.
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[7]
In my
first six months, I’ve been working hard to build the
foundations for a productive seven-year term. An important element
of that has been to develop an evidence base on key rights issues
in Wales for children and young people that I can build my
programme for the next seven years on. So, along with the other UK
commissioners, I presented a report to the United Nations
Convention on the Rights of the Child in July about the current
state of children’s rights in the UK and devolved nations. I
expect the committee’s concluding observations—and we
saw they sent a list of issues last week to the UK Government and
the devolved Governments—to form an important baseline, which
will aid me in holding to account Welsh Government and, along with
the other commissioners, the UK Government.
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[8]
I’ve also
been building an evidence base on what children and young people,
and the adults around them, think are the most important issues
that I should be concentrating on, as well as how I should carry
out my work, and I’ve been doing that through my ‘Beth
Nesa’?’/‘What Next?’ consultation. So far,
we’ve engaged over 8,000 children and young people, and
adults who care for or about them in Wales, and we’ve got
some returns still coming in. I’ll be publishing the results
of that in January, along with my three-year strategic
priorities.
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[9]
I’ve been
making plans for developing the organisation itself to deliver that
strategic plan effectively and efficiently. So, in doing so, I
won’t only be responding to my ‘What Next?’
consultation, but also to the independent review of the office,
which was led by Dr Shooter last year, and, of course, you’re
well versed in that. I found this review report to be a really
helpful analysis, which, along with my own observations, and my
discussions with my staff and outside stakeholders—including
children—has helped me to put in place plans for the
remainder of my seven-year term.
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[10]
I
think the organisation as it stands has got many strengths,
including the breadth of its work, and its high number of outputs
and activities, and the knowledge and dedication of its staff. And
I want to build on those foundations to develop our work to be more
evidence based in its approach, to measure the impact of its work,
where possible, and to strengthen the evidential links between the
different spheres of activity—for example, to use more
systematically the data from our individual casework to inform our
policy responses, and to work on a strategic plan that’s
comprehensive enough to respond to our broad remit, but focused
enough to, hopefully, make a difference to the lives of children,
and children’s rights in Wales.
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[11]
In
terms of organisational efficiency, I’m currently consulting
within my team on changes that intend to clarify management roles
and lines of accountability. I’m delivering an enhanced
governance structure, which will put a more central role for
children and young people in advising my work, plus a broader
expert advisory group. I’m considering how to use the
resources at my disposal most efficiently and effectively as well.
And I’m working with the other Welsh commissioners and
ombudsmen to identify and deliver shared procurement and delivery
of services, where this would be beneficial.
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[12]
So,
overall, I hope to build an effective and efficient organisation,
which is evidence based in its approach, and clear about its
purpose. And, of course, along with my external engagement work and
internal organisational development, I’ve been heavily
engaged in a wide range of policy issues, and I look forward to
discussing those in the session as well.
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[13]
David
Rees: Thank
you for those introductory remarks. We also appreciate, of
course, the annual report covers the period when you weren’t
in post. But, of course, the work you’ve done since then is
important, and the work you’ll be doing in the future, and
Mike Shooter’s review, and the response to that, is all part
and parcel of the issues we want to raise with you today. So,
we’ll go straight into there now. We have three themes, and
the first actually is about, basically, the response to the review.
I’ll start with Simon.
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[14]
Simon
Thomas: Diolch yn fawr, Gadeirydd, a diolch yn fawr am yr amlinelliad
yna. Fel y mae’r Cadeirydd newydd gyfeirio ato, mae’r
adroddiad yn ymwneud â dim ond eich rhagflaenydd. Rwyf jest
eisiau deall, ar ddechrau’r sesiwn yma: pe byddem ni’n
cael adroddiad blynyddol mewn blwyddyn sydd yn olrhain y gwaith
rŷch chi wedi bod yn ei wneud, a ydych chi’n gallu rhoi
rhyw ragflas i ni o le y byddai pethau yn wahanol, lle y byddech
chi’n teimlo eich bod chi’n barod i gamu mewn i
gyfeiriad gwahanol, am ba bynnag reswm, ac i ba raddau y
mae’r cyfnod newydd o saith mlynedd fel comisiynydd yn
llechen lân, ac i ba raddau y mae’n barhad o beth oedd
yn cael ei gynnal gan y cyn-gomisiynydd?
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Simon
Thomas: Thank you very
much, Chair, and thank you for the outline you’ve given us.
As the Chair has just said, the report, of course, refers to your
predecessor. I’d just like to understand at the beginning of
the session today: if we had an annual report in a year’s
time that outlined the work that you’ve been doing, could you
give us an idea of where things would be different, where you think
you would be prepared to step in a different direction, possibly,
for whatever reason, and to what extent the new period of seven
years as a commissioner is a clean slate for you, and to what
extent there is continuation of what happened previously under the
previous commissioner?
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[15]
Dr
Holland: Diolch yn fawr.
It’s an important question. I suppose in my introductory
remarks I was trying to explain, really, how I will be building on
what I think is a very strong organisation that’s done a lot
of important work over the last 14 years. But, obviously, as a new
commissioner—as the third commissioner—I think, you
know, Wales has changed a lot in 14 years as well. We have a much
more advanced and developed and rapidly changing devolution
settlement and more advanced civic society as well, and the way
that we all communicate with each other, whether we’re
children or adults, has changed a lot. So, the commissioner, too,
has to change with the times. That’s very much why I’ve
been saying, ‘Beth Nesa’?’/‘What
next?’ for the children’s commissioner? What is the
proper role of a children’s commissioner in 2015 and
onwards?
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[16]
As I
said in my introductory remarks, I think, I want to build on the
work that’s already been done by my predecessors by really
emphasising the need to focus enough that I can have an impact on
specific areas that are priorities for children’s rights. So,
there are some areas that affect all children and young people in
Wales that I will want to press Government and others on, but there
are also many groups of children that have real difficulties in
achieving their rights. You know the groups I’m talking
about, the more vulnerable groups—looked-after children,
children with disabilities and children living in poverty as well,
which is a very big group, of course, in Wales—who will need
extra attention in terms of reaching their rights.
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[17]
It
would be unwise of me to try to tackle every issue that comes into
my office every day, and one of the key reasons for doing the
‘Beth Nesa’?’ consultation is to help me
prioritise. That doesn’t mean that I’ll do my work
according to popular vote, because, actually, some of the most
important rights issues are only known about a very small number of
children and young people—perhaps issues affecting
transgender young people, for example. But it will help me to work
out, really, where we can best have impact. I’m really
determined that work we do has a strong evidence base, and that
evidence base will come from a number of sources. It will come from
our casework, it will come from research that other people have
done that we systematically gather in and sometimes it will come
from our own thematic reviews. For example, you asked where
we’ll be in a year’s time: we’re just embarking
on a thematic review of residential care, which, again, affects a
small number of children and young people—only 5 per cent of
looked-after children, who are 1 per cent of our child
population—but they’re a really vulnerable group, and a
really important group for us to look at.
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[18]
So, I
hope, in a year’s time—to get back to the
question—I will have a three-year strategic plan in place and
a really strong evidence base for where that comes from and where
it’s going, and we will also have done lots of important work
this year. We’ve already launched our ‘My
Planner’ app for smartphones, for care leavers. We’ll
have done a media guide for lesbian and gay young people on how to
challenge discrimination in the media. We’ll have the very
widespread evidence from the ‘Beth Nesa’?’
consultation and we’ll have a thematic review on children in
residential care, and that’s just some of the work that
we’re doing this year.
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09:45
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[19]
Simon Thomas: Diolch am hynny. Mae’n amlwg wrth wneud y gwaith
yma rŷch chi’n gomisiynydd, rŷch chi’n
gyfrifol am edrych ar y maes gwaith a chraffu ar yr hyn y mae pobl
eraill yn ei wneud, ac rŷch chi’n dal pobl i gyfrif, ond
nid ydych yn darparu gwasanaethau. Y Llywodraeth neu’r
awdurdodau lleol, neu bwy bynnag, sy’n darparu’r
gwasanaethau. Beth yw eich argraff chi, chwe mis i mewn i’r
swydd, o’r berthynas allweddol yna, yn enwedig gyda’r
Llywodraeth, ond, os yn briodol, hefyd gyda’r awdurdodau
allweddol eraill? A ydych chi’n gysurus bod y berthynas
honno’n un briodol, ym mhob ystyr y gair? Hynny yw, eich bod
yn gallu herio’r Llywodraeth, ond eu bod nhw hefyd yn parchu
beth y mae’r comisiynydd yn ei wneud a bod y gweithdrefnau yn
eu lle i gynnal y berthynas honno mewn ffordd
gadarnhaol.
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Simon
Thomas: Thank you for
that. It’s clear in doing this work that you’re a
commissioner, you’re responsible for looking at this area of
work, for scrutinising what other people are doing and holding
people to account, but you are not a provider of services. The
Government or the local authorities, or whoever, provide the
services. What is your impression, six months into the post, of
those key relationships, especially with the Government, but, if
appropriate, also with other key authorities? Are you comfortable
that that relationship is an appropriate one, in every sense of the
word? That is, that you are able to challenge the Government, but
that they also respect what the commissioner is doing and that the
procedures are in place to maintain that relationship in a positive
way.
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[20]
Dr
Holland: There are two
things there: there is one about how the relationship is working at
the moment, and there’s the whole issue of my accountability
and perceptions of my independence, et cetera. So, I’ll talk
about one and then the other. I think I’ve had a really
positive start in my relationship with the Government and with
local authorities and other providers, like the NHS, in that
I’ve had, I think, really constructive but robust
conversations with Ministers, including two meetings with the First
Minister in my first six months, and lots of engagement with senior
people and front-line practitioners and people receiving services
out in local authorities. I think that I have been able to have
really constructive conversations about where we need to go and my
analysis of where we’re at with children’s rights in
Wales is that we actually have some really quite strong
underpinning legislation and policy. We’re not there with all
of it yet, because there are still legislative changes that I would
like to see, but we do have some strong underpinning legislation
and policy. A lot of the issues are around the implementation of
it, and funding for the implementation of it, which is a central
Government issue, often, but also making sure that there’s
even implementation of it across Wales. So, quite a lot of our
casework that comes in—quite often, from AMs themselves
contacting us—is about where children have rights in law or
in guidance or policy, but they feel that at a local level
it’s not being implemented. So, actually quite a lot of our
direction as an office, I think, will have to be about making sure
that the rights that children actually have securely in our law are
actually being properly fulfilled.
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[21]
David
Rees: I know you
mentioned independence then, I think Suzy has a question on
that.
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[22]
Dr
Holland: Would you like me
to move on to talk about—
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[23]
David
Rees: Just
to—
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[24]
Suzy
Davies: [Inaudible.]
It’s fine.
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[25]
Simon
Thomas: We will discuss
independence a little more, but just on this, on meetings with
Ministers and so forth, you said that you’d had a
meeting—two, I think you said—with the First Minister,
which is positive, I think. Do you attend Cabinet at
all?
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[26]
Dr
Holland: I haven’t
been invited to attend Cabinet. I don’t know whether
that’s ever happened in the past.
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[27]
Ms
Thomas: Previously, the
commissioner used to attend the Cabinet sub-committee on children,
when the committee was in existence, but hasn’t attended
Cabinet more recently.
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[28]
Dr
Holland: One issue
I’ve raised consistently with Government at all levels is the
difficulty in identifying where children’s issues are fully
co-ordinated across Government. It’s an issue that I have
raised consistently. Although I report to the Minister for
Communities and Tackling Poverty, and obviously within her remit
she covers some very important issues concerning children and young
people in tackling poverty and housing, to name but two, there is
no co-ordinating high-level committee across Government, but
centrally—
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[29]
Simon
Thomas: Well, there is and
it’s called the Cabinet.
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[30]
Dr
Holland: Yes, and
there’s no specific children’s Minister.
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[31]
Simon
Thomas: No. Just to finish
that on the Government’s response, the report that you
mentioned in your opening remarks made some key recommendations and
we may discuss some of them this morning, but, overall, the
response of the Government that I saw back in the summer seemed to
be a quite loose, generalist response rather than a very specific
kind of one. Are you still engaged in trying to get more out of the
Government in terms of responding to those
individual—
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[32]
Dr
Holland: Sorry; is this to
the Mike Shooter report?
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[33]
Simon
Thomas: Yes.
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[34]
Dr
Holland: Okay. Yes.
Obviously, the report was published at the end of last year. I
think the Government obviously waited for me to come into post.
Then, I met with the Minister early on in my appointment, really
for an introductory meeting, but we did discuss the timetable for
responding to the report, and we indicated to each other that it
would be a staged response, because there were some things I could
respond to immediately but some things I would need time to
consider and to consult on. Similarly, I was informed that the
Government would need to take time to consider some of the
recommendations. If—
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[35]
Simon
Thomas: Do you have a firm
timetable of when they will come back, though?
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[36]
Dr
Holland: I was given a
timetable for when they would come back with a partial response,
which we had—I think you were referring to that—at the
beginning of the summer, wasn’t it? But, now that I have
published a full response to the review I would hope to get a full
response back. I’ve only had one introductory meeting so far
with the Minister, but I do have a full meeting with her on the
twenty-fifth of this month, so I would expect that to be high up on
the agenda.
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[37]
Simon
Thomas: Okay.
Diolch.
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[38]
David
Rees: Okay.
Suzy.
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[39]
Suzy
Davies: Just to go back to
the more general point about meeting with Ministers and so forth, I
was looking at the report itself, which I appreciate relates to
your predecessor, and in the section called
‘Influencing’, your predecessor does talk about
speaking to Ministers and that. There is very little in the report
about actually speaking to Assembly Members, and I wondered, in
your sort of future look, whether you’ve got plans for more
consistent and regular meetings with Assembly Members—or key
Assembly Members, anyway.
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[40]
Dr
Holland: Yes. I mean,
obviously, we have a lot of contact with Assembly Members,
especially through our casework, but I agree with you that it is a
very constructive process to talk to Assembly Members, who’ve
actually got a really good sense, as I do—. Simon mentioned
earlier about not being a provider in one area and having an
overview. In a way, Assembly Members also see a whole range of
issues and, like me, you can see the gaps as well as the join-ups
in terms of policies and where it’s working well and where,
perhaps, it isn’t. Because we have the elections coming up in
May, as you are aware, I’ve been meeting with all of the
parties to talk about children’s rights issues that I would
like to see appearing in future programmes for government, and I
found that to be a really constructive process to engage with
Assembly Members from right across all of the parties. It’s
been a really constructive process and I certainly would like to
consider carrying on in that vein, not just at election
time.
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[41]
Suzy
Davies: Well, I’m
pleased to hear that because I know at least one of the other
commissioners has quarterly meetings with at least the
spokespeople, and that’s a really good way of helping that
individual commissioner take issues to the Government as well, so,
it’s you know—
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[42]
Dr
Holland: I think
that’s a really helpful suggestion.
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[43]
Suzy
Davies: —an arrow in
the quiver, if you like. I just want to move on then to that
question of independence. You’ve made your views fairly clear
in your response to the Mike Shooter report on to whom you think
your office should be accountable. Can you give us some indication
of the conversations you’ve had with Ministers and perhaps
with the Presiding Officer as well to see why there, perhaps, might
be a difference of opinion there?
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[44]
Dr
Holland: Okay. I think the
Government itself has made it clear that their view is that
it’s worked well and that they’re not minded to change
the arrangements. You will be aware of my view on that. Although I
have been clear that, in practice, my office hasn’t felt
interfered with by Government, it is a question of perception,
which I think is quite important. The Government is really the main
body that I’ll be holding to account as commissioner, so
there is a perception that the body that appoints me and funds
me—that it would be difficult for me to hold them to account.
I don’t think that’s been the case in practice, but I
think perception is really important. In fact, in the general
public, people often assume I’m part of Government as well,
rather than independent.
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[45]
Suzy
Davies: Can I ask you
specifically how, in that conversation with the Minister, she
responded to the observation that there’s an overwhelming
majority who support your position on this? It’s kind of
uncomfortable for us to hear, ‘Oh well, the Minister just
didn’t think that was important’. So, I presume there
was a level of discussion about why the Minister didn’t agree
with the majority.
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[46]
Dr
Holland: Yes, I mean, to be
honest, as I say, I’ve only had one introductory meeting so
far with the Minister, and I would expect us to be covering some of
these details in more depth in our meeting on the twenty-fifth of
this month, but we will be having six-monthly meetings throughout
my term, although I have, obviously, also discussed it with some of
her senior officials. I think the Government’s view is that
it’s worked okay so far, so why change it? But as I say, my
view is that it’s important for perceptions, perceptions of
transparency and also for my accountability as well. If I was
appointed by the Assembly, I could be held more formally to account
by the Assembly as well. At the moment, it is by arrangement rather
than by any rule that we do this session every year, for example. I
think that we could have more formal arrangements, and I think it
would be perfectly possible. Of course, the United Nations itself
and the UN Committee on the Rights of the Child, in line with the
Paris principles, would say that all children’s commissioners
should be appointed by the legislature rather than the executive.
We know how we came to this because, at the beginning, with the
first commissioner, there wasn’t a separation of powers. So,
it’s a historic legacy, I suspect, rather than design, but I
think it should be moved over. The UN committee thinks it should be
moved over. In the list of issues that they sent to Government last
week, after our private hearing in Geneva with commissioners and
with children last month, they say to the UK Government,
‘Will all commissioners be appointed by the
legislatures?’
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[47]
Suzy
Davies: Oh, right, so
it’s in the forefront of their minds as well. That’s
good. What about the Presiding Officer? Have you had an opportunity
to discuss this particular point with her?
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[48]
Dr
Holland: Yes, I’ve
had a very constructive meeting with the Presiding Officer, at
which we covered a great number of issues, as you can imagine,
including this issue. My understanding is that she’s in
support of my office’s position: that the appointments should
be from the Assembly.
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[49]
Suzy
Davies: Okay. That’s
great. Thank you. I’ve got one—
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[50]
David
Rees: Can I ask one
question before you go on?
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[51]
Suzy
Davies: Oh, yes, of
course.
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[52]
David
Rees: You’ve
indicated that you also had two meetings with the First Minister.
Was this topic raised with the First Minister as well?
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[53]
Dr
Holland: I’m just
trying to recall exactly. I don’t want to give the wrong
impression. I think we touched on it in the very first meeting when
we talked about Shooter review in general. That was when I was a
week or two into the appointment, and he said that the Government
would be responding. So, I haven’t talked about it with him
in any detail.
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[54]
David
Rees: That’s fine.
Sorry, Suzy.
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[55]
Suzy
Davies: Okay. Just to
finish off on the Shooter report, really, I can see from the
response that you gave to the report that you agree that the office
shouldn’t have any sanctioning powers in the future. In your
response, though, it was literally just a line saying, ‘I
agree with what Mike Shooter said’. Can you give us some
insight into why you don’t think your office should be given
more clout?
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[56]
Dr
Holland: Well,
there’s a difference between clout, I suppose, and
sanctioning powers. I would like the legislation surrounding my
powers to be changed: I would like it to be tidied up. It’s
complex at the moment and in three different pieces of legislation.
I would like it to be extended so that I clearly have
responsibility for the rights of all children and young people in
Wales on all matters. I think that’s the most important
legislative change I’d be looking for. At the moment, the
sanctions that my office has, and that I have, are to name and
shame, really. Actually, I think that can be a really effective
sanction. I’m not sure that a sanction to fine, for example,
in the current situation with budgets, et cetera, would be a very
constructive way for me to work forward with local authorities, for
example, or health boards or anyone else delivering public services
to children and young people. I’m not sure that that would be
a helpful way forward. We have the ombudsmen with those powers on
specific individual cases.
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[57]
Suzy
Davies: Well, can I ask
you this, then? Because, actually I’m not clear on what your
powers are on proactively going into, say, a local
authority—or it could be a health board—because you
think, ‘Well, actually, we haven’t looked at these
people and I’ve had some casework on this; I would really
like to go in myself and do a root-and-branch review of a
particular service’. You do have powers for that, I think.
But if your findings were that or were dreadful, the naming and
shaming thing, what sort of difference would that make?
|
|
10:00
|
|
[58]
Dr
Holland: Well, it would
depend what kind of ‘dreadful’ we were talking about.
If it was uncovering child protection issues, then there are,
obviously, child protection routes that can be taken. I could
certainly ask Government to step in if it was a local government
issue, and would do so. We’ve worked with local authorities
in the past where there seem to have been systemic issues and have
created change at that level. Often, it’s better to do that
not in a great wave of publicity, but to work constructively with
them to make sure that all of the procedures are in place to make
sure children are safe and have their rights fulfilled in that
local authority. It’s the outcome for children that’s
most important for my office.
|
|
[59]
Ms
Thomas: When you publish
recommendations, local authorities have to provide a response to
those recommendations—so, reports that are published, we
would follow up those recommendations. We’ve done so with the
‘Lost After Care’ report, and, on an annual basis,
authorities have to report back to us how they are progressing with
developing their leaving care services. So, it’s a healthy
tension of publishing clear recommendations that we expect to be
acted on and then making sure that we follow those up. I,
certainly, have had heads of children’s services saying to
me, ‘We are continuing with our progress and efforts, and we
know we will have to report that progress back to you’. So, I
think there is a healthy tension and it’s a continued one in
order to try and drive that change.
|
|
[60]
Suzy
Davies: Okay, thank you.
Just to finish—it’s exactly on this point—how
often do you get asked for advice by local authorities on how to
ensure that children are, say, adequately consulted in whatever
plan they’re thinking of at the time? We can do a note on
this, if you like, because I don’t expect you to know off the
top of your head.
|
|
[61]
Dr
Holland: Yes. I
couldn’t tell you accurately how often, but it does
occasionally happen. Certainly, more recently, many local
authorities are thinking about how they may implement the UNCRC
more effectively right across their local authority. We’ve
been involved in working with local authorities on that, helping
them develop their schemes locally. Also, I have had leaders in
local authorities come up to me and ask, ‘What do you think
is the most effective way forward on that?’. There are some
really interesting examples—I saw Angela nodding
there—and Pembrokeshire developed a really interesting model
recently on how to implement the UNCRC in their area.
|
|
[62]
Suzy
Davies: Okay. Just a short
answer was fine; thank you.
|
|
[63]
David
Rees: You’ve
actually spurred some questions now. I’ve got Simon with a
very short question, Aled with a very short
question—[Laughter.]—then Lynne and then
Keith.
|
|
[64]
Simon
Thomas: It is a short
question, and specifically arises from what Suzy Davies was asking
you about sanctions or further powers, because it strikes me that
every organisation that you may be scrutinising or reporting on has
a regulatory body, or some sanctioning body responsible for that
organisation, anyway. So, are there any gaps that you’ve
identified so far or—. By naming and shaming, you’re
drawing attention of the regulator to a failure by a public
body—is that always the case, or are there missing
bits?
|
|
[65]
Dr
Holland: I can’t
think of an example absolutely off the top of my head and I think
that’s really what my ‘Beth Nesa’?’
consultation is about, because it’s with children and young
people and with parents and with professionals. We’ve got a
wealth of information coming from that, which we are just starting
to sift through, but I think we will probably identify some gaps
there for sure. Certainly, in terms of specific policy areas, we
are seeing some gaps and I will be putting those into my plan for
areas we want to work in over the next three years.
|
|
[66]
David
Rees: Aled.
|
|
[67]
Aled
Roberts: Rydych chi’n cyfeirio at wendidau systemig o fewn rhai
awdurdodau lle gofynnwyd i chi fynd i mewn. Yn yr achosion hynny, a ydych chi’n mynnu bod unrhyw
adroddiad yn mynd yn ôl i’r aelodau etholedig, neu oes
yna berig—? Rwy’n derbyn beth rydych chi’n ei ddweud
ynglŷn â nad ydych chi eisiau cyhoeddusrwydd, ond sut
ydych chi’n gwarantu bod yr aelodau etholedig yn ymwybodol
o’r gwendidau systemig yna?
|
Aled
Roberts: You refer to
systemic weaknesses within some authorities that you’ve been
required to go into. In those cases, do you insist that any report
goes back to the elected members, or is there a risk—? I
accept what you say, that you don’t want publicity, but how
do you guarantee that the elected members are aware of the systemic
weaknesses?
|
|
[68]
Dr
Holland: Okay. I’m
going to just consult with my colleagues, because I haven’t
done any work with one particular authority since I took
office.
|
|
[69]
Ms
Thomas: I think the point
is well made and I think that, historically, some of the critical
issues are when they’re raising that dialogue with members.
So, very much, in the past, the organisation has worked with both
officers and members to highlight issues, and we would want to
continue in that vein. Certainly, that has been the case in a
number of authorities where members may not be aware. So, that
certainly is how we would take that forward, Aled.
|
|
[70]
Aled
Roberts: Okay.
|
|
[71]
David
Rees: Lynne.
|
|
[72]
Lynne
Neagle: Yes, it was just
on the example that you gave of where you had done a report, and
then local authorities were required to report back; with the older
person’s commissioner, when they’ve done statutory
reviews, all that information, every report back, is on their
website. Do you make it public when the local authorities report
back?
|
|
[73]
Dr
Holland: We haven’t
on all reports, but we have published summary reports that indicate
the progress that is being made. But that’s certainly a
really useful and interesting example that we can
consider.
|
|
[74]
Lynne
Neagle: Okay, thank
you.
|
|
[75]
David
Rees: Keith, and then
we’ll move on to Angela.
|
|
[76]
Keith Davies: Gwnaf ddilyn hynny lan yn gyntaf, achos rwy’n credu
ddydd Llun yr wythnos hon oedd adroddiad comisiynydd
gwasanaethau’r cyhoedd wedi dod mas a’i gael ei anfon
atom, ac mae’n dod mas bob tri mis. Mae’n sôn am
bob achos, ac mae’n werth ei ddarllen. Byddwn i’n credu
y dylai bob comisiynydd wneud yr un peth. Ond jest sylw yw
hynny.
|
Keith
Davies: I’ll follow
up on that first, because I think that on Monday of this week the
public services commissioner’s report came out and was sent
to us, and it comes out every three months. It mentions every case
and it’s worth reading. I think every commissioner should do
the same thing. That’s just a comment.
|
|
[77]
Beth
rwyf eisiau gofyn ichi—roedd Shooter yn dweud hefyd y
dylai’ch cylch gwaith chi fod yn fwy, achos rŷm
ni’n edrych ar les plant a phobl ifanc yng Nghymru, ond, wrth
gwrs, nid yw popeth wedi cael ei ddatganoli, ac mae Shooter yn
dweud y dylech chi fod yn edrych ar bopeth sy’n ymwneud
â phlant a phobl ifanc yng Nghymru. A ŷch chi’n
credu y dylai’r Gweinidog newid pethau ac eich gadael chi i
gael y gyfrifoldeb yna?
|
What I’d
like to ask is—Shooter also says that your remit should be
wider because we’re looking at children and young
people’s welfare in Wales, but, of course, not everything has
been devolved, and Shooter says that you should be looking at
everything that relates to children and young people in Wales. Do
you think that the Minister should change the situation and let you
have that responsibility?
|
|
[78]
Dr
Holland: Yes, thank you.
I’m aware of the ombudsman’s casebook. I read the last
quarter’s one, and this quarter’s one is sitting in my
inbox to be opened. Of course, his role is different, and it is all
about individual casework; we try to give a flavour of our casework
in our annual report. But yes, you’re correct. There are some
anomalies in the issues that, under the legislation, I’m able
to cover. My role is to serve the interests of all children and
young people in Wales, and to limit it to just devolved issues is a
real anomaly in terms of trying to promote the interests of all
children. There’s no reason, really, why it should be linked
just to devolution. Examples are, of course, children involved in
the criminal justice system, where I can get involved in aspects of
their lives like their health, their housing and their welfare, but
not in the criminal justice issues, and, similarly, with young
people seeking asylum and refugees, I can get involved in some
aspects of their lives, but not all. I think that causes confusion.
I think it’s a much better message to children and young
people that I’m here as commissioner for all children on all
issues, so I think that’s one of the things that needs
tidying up in the legislation.
|
|
[79]
David
Rees: Thank you.
Angela.
|
|
[80]
Angela
Burns: Thank you. What
other aspects, Sally, of legislation would you like to see changed
going forward? I know that Mike Shooter touched on a number of
areas.
|
|
[81]
Dr
Holland: Do you mean just
concerning my role?
|
|
[82]
Angela
Burns: Sorry, concerning
your role. I beg your pardon.
|
|
[83]
Dr
Holland: I could give you a
shopping list of all the things I’d like to change in Wales.
[Laughter.] The key issue is about—well, there are two
things. One is the accountability issue, which we’ve already
talked about in some depth, and the other thing is tidying up my
role, making the powers clearer. So, my strongest powers in terms
of holding Ministers to account, for example, are in three areas,
three specific named areas: whistleblowing—.
|
|
[84]
Ms
Thomas: Advocacy.
|
|
[85]
Dr
Holland: Advocacy and
complaints. I do know it. [Laughter.] Whistleblowing,
advocacy and complaints, and that, of course, is a legacy of the
Waterhouse inquiry, where those were key concerns in that inquiry,
and that’s where my post comes from. There’s a lot
about my legislative basis that’s a legacy of the very early
days, so I think it would make sense for me to have the same level
of power to hold Ministers, and others exercising powers for
children right across public services, to have the same level of
power for all of them on every topic concerning children and young
people.
|
|
[86]
Angela
Burns: Would you see it
going as far as perhaps being involved in the scrutiny of CRIAs?
Sorry, CRIAs, not the other kind of—
|
|
[87]
Dr
Holland: Children’s
rights impact assessments.
|
|
[88]
Angela
Burns: Yes, the impact
assessments, because I know it’s something, for example,
Lynne and I have discussed in this committee many times, the fact
that children’s rights impact assessments are not necessarily
carried out in the most effective way that they could be. Would you
actually see yourself going as far as that? And if you do, do you
think that you’re going to have to make a material change in
the way that your office is run to be able to undertake that amount
of extra work?
|
|
[89]
Dr
Holland: Well, I think that
scrutinising the CRIAs is something that already would fall within
the remit of my work. We are awaiting an independent evaluation, I
think, of the first wave of CRIAs under the Measure. I
haven’t seen the results of that yet, but I would fully
expect my officers to be analysing CRIAs, where we get to see them
and where they’re made fully available. I think that’s
an important part of our analysis already.
|
|
[90]
Angela
Burns: Sorry, can I just
ask you—and I do appreciate that you are new in to this role,
but are you saying that that’s the first time that CRIAs will
have been looked at in some depth since we passed the 2011
legislation, and given that we now sit in 2015—?
|
|
[91]
Dr
Holland: I think it’s
the first evaluation—the first independent evaluation is to
be reported on this autumn. That’s my
understanding.
|
|
[92]
Angela
Burns: Can you confirm
whether or not your office have actually done work in this area? I
appreciate that you’ve got an evaluation going,
but—
|
|
[93]
Dr
Holland: With every piece
of legislation that comes out, where there’s a CRIA
available, we would be scrutinising that and would be asking for
it.
|
|
[94]
Angela
Burns: You
are.
|
|
[95]
Dr
Holland: Oh, absolutely, as
part—. I thought you were talking about systematic analysis
of the quality right across them. We’ll look at the
independent evaluation when it comes out, but that may well be a
piece of work that we need to carry forward in the
future.
|
|
[96]
Angela
Burns: May I just touch
on one other bit of potential legislative change? The Shooter
review was quite open about the fact that you may want to consider
the notion of looking at young people’s issues up to the age
of 25. It is a recommendation that you were fairly emphatically
against, and I wonder if you would perhaps explain that a little
bit further to us.
|
|
[97]
Dr
Holland: Absolutely. Of
course, my remit does now cover young people who have been looked
after up to 21, and, in fact, up to 25, if they remain in
education, but, for the majority of children and young people in
Wales, my remit covers them up to 18. That’s because the
United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child is the main
framework for my role and it clearly covers children and young
people up to 18. I think that there are other levers for young
adults to have their rights fulfilled through the Human Rights Act
1998, for example, and through bodies like the Equality and Human
Rights Commission. I must say that in my ‘Beth
Nesa’?’ consultation up until now, issues of transition
to adulthood—and this will be familiar to lots of you from
your own constituency casework—for young people who need some
kind of continued help or care after they’re 18, whether
that’s because of health needs or care needs, is a really key
issue. It’s something that I’ve already raised with
appropriate Ministers as a concern, the sort of cliff edge that
many young people face at 18, and I would see that scrutiny of
transition arrangements to adulthood as being fully within my
remit. It’s been such a strong part, so far, of my
consultation that I would expect it to feature in my programme of
work in the future.
|
|
[98]
David
Rees: I know that Lynne
wants to raise some questions on that process afterwards.
We’ll come back to that.
|
|
[99]
Angela
Burns: I appreciate the
logic behind your response. I think I would counter slightly with a
concern I have that much of our legislative framework that we are
putting into place is to deal with individuals up to 25, whether
it’s the proposed Additional Learning Needs and Education
Tribunal (Wales) Bill, whether it’s the Social Services and
Well-being (Wales) Bill—you know, the whole issue when we
talk about looked-after children, we talk about all of the
vulnerable groups, if you like, within our society. I did press the
Minister on this a little and she did say that she would consider
looking at specific groups and perhaps adding them into the mix. I
wondered what your view was on that.
|
|
10:15
|
|
[100]
I
think I would also like to make a comment that Wales has generally
been—you know, we’ve been very good at leading the
field in so many ways and, without dissing the UNCRC, I
wouldn’t like their limit to be our limitation. I fail to see
why we can’t take it and go one better. Again, I’d just
like your view on that.
|
|
[101]
Dr
Holland: Well, I do agree
with you that there are some real vulnerabilities for many young
adults but also, obviously, for many adults beyond 25 as well. In a
lot of our legislative basis, which covers England and Wales,
actually, such as the child protection legislation also, again
there’s a specific cut-off at 18. I think a key part of my
role, really, is to promote knowledge and awareness of
children’s rights to children and young people, and I will
need to be careful not to confuse the key message that children and
young people up to the age of 18 have specific international rights
that must be upheld and that young people up to 18 do have some
specific vulnerabilities as well that we need to take into
account.
|
|
[102]
Angela
Burns: Finally, I
suppose, I’d just like to pick up on a point you’ve
just made and ask if you could perhaps expand a little bit on it.
You were talking about the fact that you felt that your reach is to
the pre-18 young people mostly. One of the recommendations was
about having more of a national awareness campaign. Of course, the
previous commissioner, to be fair, was out an awful lot actually
promoting that with young people and organisations throughout
Wales. What else do you think we could bring to that to really
ensure that all young people pre-18 are really aware of the
children’s commissioner? I have to tell you that my
just-turned 11-year-old has flung the fact that there’s a
Children’s Commissioner for Wales into my face on one
occasion when I reprimanded her for something, so she certainly
knew her rights. [Laughter.]
|
|
[103]
Dr
Holland: I’m so
pleased to hear that. [Laughter.] I’m not sure I
really want my name taken in vain like that as a threat, but
I’m so glad she knew that she had rights—
|
|
[104]
Angela
Burns: She certainly
did—
|
|
[105]
Dr
Holland: —and that
there was a commissioner.
|
|
[106]
Angela
Burns: She knew she had
rights.
|
|
[107]
Dr
Holland: Actually, I think
we’re doing quite well in primary schools. There are a number
of bodies that have a responsibility for this. I have a
responsibility for making sure that children and young people know
about their rights, so do many parts of the voluntary sector, and
Children in Wales have some specific funding around that. But the
Welsh Government, of course, has a strong responsibility to promote
children’s rights under the Rights of Children and Young
Persons (Wales) Measure 2011. And, in fact, my office, Children in
Wales and the appropriate Government officials have been doing some
planning around how we can best co-ordinate our work and make sure
we’re not overlapping or making the same efforts etc. But,
really, I think the Government has the main drivers for promoting
this. Although I and my office do an enormous amount of
work—we’ve got super ambassadors who promote my office
and children’s rights in over 200 primary schools, for
example, and we’re expanding that into secondary schools,
I’ve got community ambassadors with all sorts of specialist
groups, and we work really hard on all of this—I think the
Government’s got the main drivers and that’s got to be
through the curriculum and making it a really strong part of the
curriculum.
|
|
[108]
We’ve got a
great opportunity now with the Donaldson review—which puts
wellbeing and rights at the heart of the curriculum, to my great
delight, I have to say—for schools to be much more
systematically talking about rights, so not just one personal and
social education lesson where they say, ‘You’ve got 42
rights and this is what they are’ but to actually understand
what that means for your everyday life. That’s something that
can be built in right through and across the curriculum, so not
just one specialist area. I’ve seen some schools do that so
well. We’ve got links with some really fantastic schools that
have built in an understanding of rights and what that would mean
in all aspects of the curriculum, and you see that working really
well. So, that’s what I’d like to see.
|
|
[109]
I’ve had
lots of conversations with young people, let’s say perhaps
coming towards the end of their school years or at FE colleges, who
say, ‘We wish we’d known about all this earlier’.
Some of them will say, ‘We had one lesson about rights, but I
didn’t really understand what it meant. It was just a
lesson.’ They’ve been quite strong—when
they’ve understood what rights mean and how it actually
underpins all sorts of other aspects of their lives, they can be
really passionate about how they wish they’d known more about
it earlier. So, I think I have a responsibility but so, certainly,
does Government, to make sure that it really underpins how we bring
up our children and that they understand that it’s
there.
|
|
[110]
David
Rees: We need to move
on, but I’m going to give Aled one small last question before
we move on.
|
|
[111]
Aled
Roberts: O
ran deddfu, mae Llywodraeth Prydain wastad wedi gwrthwynebu’r
hyn a ddywedodd Keith ynghylch ymestyn eich cyfrifoldebau chi i
feysydd nad ydynt wedi’u datganoli, gan ddweud y byddai
hynny’n dadwneud Deddf Llywodraeth Cymru. A oes unrhyw
drafodaethau wedi cymryd lle gyda Llywodraeth Cymru neu
gyda’r Ysgrifennydd Gwladol ynglŷn â chynnwys rhai
newidiadau o fewn y Bil Cymru drafft?
|
Aled
Roberts: In terms of
legislating, the UK Government has always rejected what Keith said
in terms of extending your responsibilities to non-devolved areas,
by saying that that would undo the Government of Wales Act. Have
there been any discussions with the Welsh Government or with the
Secretary of State in terms of including some changes within the
draft Wales Bill?
|
|
[112]
Dr
Holland: Well, of course,
I’m not party to any discussions, if there have been any
specifically about the children’s commissioners
role—
|
|
[113]
Aled
Roberts: You’ve not
been approached, though.
|
|
[114]
Dr
Holland: No, I
haven’t. I am aware that the children’s commissioner is
mentioned in the Wales Bill and we have sought legal advice,
actually, on the request of this committee itself, on our
role.
|
|
[115]
Mr
Dafydd: And we’ll be
following up with a note on that in due course this
week.
|
|
[116]
Aled
Roberts: Right.
Okay.
|
|
[117]
David
Rees: We are
anticipating the response before the next meeting.
|
|
[118]
Dr
Holland: Yes. We’ve
just received advice on that. My understanding is that, at the
moment, under the current settlement, the Welsh Assembly would be
able to legislate on that. That’s the legal advice that we
have. But the Wales Bill, as it stands—and, of course, we
know it could well change in many ways—I think, could make it
more complicated rather than easier to legislate. That is my quick
answer on that.
|
|
[119]
David
Rees: Okay. Thank you
for that. I want to move on now to the next two areas. Lynne, you
ask your questions on casework, and then if you want to move on to
policy areas as well.
|
|
[120]
Lynne
Neagle: Okay. Thank you.
Yes, with casework, one of the things that Mike Shooter highlighted
was that there needed to be clear criteria for which cases were
taken up by your office. I know that I’m not the only member
of this committee that has had a variable response when I’ve
contacted your office—not you personally, obviously. With
casework, there are some things we’ve had absolutely loads of
help with; with other things we’ve hit a brick wall. So, I
just wanted to ask you, really, how you see that aspect of the work
being taken forward.
|
|
[121]
Dr
Holland: Yes, we do
have—and I’ve, in fact, recently reviewed
it—clear operational guidance on this. We have recently
reviewed it as well. I suppose that the most important reason why
we would take a case on or not is whether it’s within our
remit. We’ve already discussed this morning that there are
some restrictions on our remit. Our office often will be trying to
reach the quickest resolution of any issue for children and young
people. So, often, it was more appropriate for something to be
dealt with at a lower level more quickly. That’s another
reason why we might signpost people on to somewhere else. We will
take on cases where they will have possibly wider
significance—and we’ve a good opportunity, because we
have cases from all around Wales, to see the connection, sometimes,
between cases—and where a child or young person has sort of
reached the end of the line in terms of complaints processes or
just trying to get a service.
|
|
[122]
Lynne
Neagle: Okay. In terms of
following up the cases, what evidence do you have that where you
are intervening you are delivering positive outcomes for
children?
|
|
[123]
Dr
Holland: Okay. So, already,
when I started, our investigation advice service had just developed
a new system for systematically recording and logging. Of course,
they were already logged, but it’s been reviewed and changed
a little to make sure that we can do that. I’m very keen to
systematise and fully analyse the very rich material that actually
comes in through our case material—the casework—to make
sure that we both see whether individually we’ve been able to
help that child or young person, first of all, but also whether it
has implications for wider policy issues and whether we should
follow and can follow through on that. It’s going to be an
important part of my plan going forward that we are recording and
analysing our impact.
|
|
[124]
Ms
Thomas: I think it’s
worth just adding that we have introduced a system of, when cases
are concluded, actually doing a synopsis and making sure that
we’ve got the analysis at that point. I think that the points
made in committee this morning about casebooks, and also regular
opportunities to meet with Assembly Members to discuss the case
material, are really important. I think that we would illustrate
some of the systemic ways of working through some of the work that
we’ve worked on—individual cases with children and
young people in the looked-after system that helped us give our
evidence on the scrutiny of the Social Services and Well-being
(Wales) Act 2014, and the Regulation and Inspection of Social Care
(Wales) Bill. Within that process, we did publish a casebook for
that very reason. Equally, we’ve had a number of cases this
year in relation to safe routes to school, and that equally has
helped us to influence the Learner Travel (Wales) Measure 2008.
But, we need to make sure that we are consistently feeding that
back to you.
|
|
[125]
Dr
Holland: In terms of the
individual cases, we’re bringing in a system where we will
regularly carry out evaluations with children and young people, and
the people who care about them, who have contacted the service. So,
we’ve already started doing a regular call-back to people to
see whether they were satisfied with the service and whether their
issue was resolved et cetera.
|
|
[126]
Lynne
Neagle: Thank
you.
|
|
[127]
David
Rees: Just before Lynne
goes on to the next question, the balance of those referrals was
highlighted by Mike Shooter, and I think it was 501 to about 39
from adults and children. Have you analysed those figures to
understand where the issues are arising and why they’re
arising from adults more than children? Is that the type of balance
you would expect to have for referrals?
|
|
[128]
Dr
Holland: So, you’re
talking about the balance of adults contacting us.
|
|
[129]
David
Rees: Of the referrals,
yes.
|
|
[130]
Dr
Holland: I think that
we’ve had a fairly consistent level of children and adults
referring cases to us over the years and it’s always been a
minority of cases where children have contacted us directly. I have
to say that I think that that’s to be expected, and, in fact,
I feel heartened by the fact that there are adults there who are
concerned enough—and it’s usually parents, often
parents, but not just parents—and feel able to contact us on
their behalf. The situation of the children and young people who
need our help is often that they’re very vulnerable;
they’re often disabled et cetera. It’s quite a big
barrier for them to contact us directly, although some do. One of
the first things we do when a caller contacts us is to check that
the child or young person is aware of the call and that
they’re happy with us proceeding, and as we proceed, we will
always try and make sure that we’re aware of the child or
young person’s views and speak to them directly if we
can.
|
|
[131]
David
Rees: So, the balance of
roughly 10:1, which is near enough to what it is, is an expected
type of balance, effectively.
|
|
[132]
Dr
Holland: My view is that
that should be expected because of the nature of the calls that we
take. Having said that, we do, and will continue, to promote our
services directly to children and young people. Whenever I go out
and talk to children and young people, I tell them about the
service and tell them that they can phone it directly. I’ll
continue to keep an eye on that and monitor it.
|
|
[133]
David
Rees: Okay.
Lynne?
|
|
[134]
Lynne
Neagle: Do you want me to
go on to child and adolescent mental health services
now?
|
|
[135]
David
Rees: Go on to the
policy issues, yes.
|
|
[136]
Lynne
Neagle: Ok; thank you. On
CAHMS, you’ve said in your report that it is extremely
concerning that it is again necessary for the office to highlight
CAHMS as an area in need of significant attention, in both policy
and service development. Well, amen to that, because CAHMS has been
in every single commissioner’s report that I’ve ever
seen, and I’ve been here a long time now. I just wanted to
ask a couple of questions, really. The Welsh Government is looking
at this whole area. To what extent are you involved in the work
that the Welsh Government is doing, and what kind of outcomes do
you want to see?
|
|
[137]
Dr
Holland: It’s a
really important issue for me, and as you indicate, has been for
many years for my office. The reason it’s appeared every year
is because it hasn’t been sorted out yet, and it’s
really been important to keep highlighting it; I know it’s
been a really important theme for this committee over the last
couple of years. Ever since I started, really, from day one, from
before I started even, people have been contacting me and talking
to me about child and adolescent mental health and wellbeing more
generally. And, I think one of the complex issues here is that it
is more than just the clinical needs, isn’t it? There’s
a wider issue of prevention and early intervention as
well.
|
|
[138]
The
Together for Children and Young People programme that’s been
announced, I do have some involvement in. I’m an independent
member of the expert advisory group for Professor Dame Sue Bailey,
and I’m really keen, as part of that role, to make sure that
children and young people’s experiences and perspectives play
a central role in any reforms that come forward, firstly, and
secondly that we actually see some change and some better outcomes
for children and young people. I do think it’s a complex
issue; it’s not something for which we have any quick
fix.
|
|
10:30
|
|
[139]
I
support the approach of the Together for Children and Young People
programme, because I like the fact that it’s tackling things
on a range of issues—it’s looking at early intervention
and prevention, as well as the acute clinical needs, and all of
these are really important.
|
|
[140]
We
must address the waiting lists, for example, and we must address
access-to-clinical issues, but, if we just try and address that, we
won’t actually address the wider issue, and the reason why
all these referrals are coming in, which is because there’s
not enough early intervention. There’s not enough, first of
all, prevention—making sure that we’re helping children
and young people to feel robust and resilient in coping with the
stresses and strains of everyday life. Secondly, there’s not
enough primary care where children and young people need
it—which isn’t in clinics—until they become very
ill; it’s out in the community, doing early intervention work
and help, perhaps when they’re starting to feel a bit
distressed, or having early difficulties. And then, we also need to
get the clinical services right as well. I think you’re very
well versed on these issues as a committee.
|
|
[141]
We
know there’s no quick fix, but we also know that we need to
see change—we cannot keep going with this sort of systemic
anxiety about CAMHS for more and more years. And, in my ‘Beth
Nesa’?’ consultation, it’s been a really, really
strong theme coming to me from children and young people. So,
I’ve talked to children and young people in schools and
colleges, for example, who say they would like more knowledge about
mental health issues, and more help early on when they’re
perhaps feeling anxious about exams, or about family issues, or
relationships. I’ve also visited young people in both of the
NHS in-patient units—the one in the south, and the one in the
north—since I started, and had really useful conversations
with young people there about what might have helped them, what
might have helped them earlier.
|
|
[142]
In
fact, on my visit a couple of weeks ago to the north Wales unit, I
spoke to some very interesting and articulate young people, who
said—I thought, when I asked them what might have helped
earlier, they might have talked specifically about clinical issues,
and psychiatry, and that kind of thing, but they said, ‘We
wish there was more in school early on; we wish there’d been
more early support for our health, more people to look out for us
when we were just starting to have problems with eating’, or
whatever the issue was for them. So, I thought that was very wise
of them to see it as an early preventative issue. So, I don’t
think there’s a quick fix. I’m keeping a close eye on
it, I’m having lots of conversations about it, at all levels
of Government, and I’ll be watching—as you will, I
know—the outcomes of Together for Children and Young People
very, very carefully.
|
|
[143]
Lynne
Neagle: Okay. You referred
in your answer to waiting times, which are a major concern.
I’ve got several cases at the moment of young people who are
waiting on a neuro-developmental waiting list for autistic spectrum
diagnosis, and the waiting time is 18 months, which is a huge chunk
of a child’s life at a time when, you know, they’re
doing their GCSEs—things like that. Have you got any comments
on what you’d like to see in terms of more appropriate
waiting times for children and young people?
|
|
[144]
Dr
Holland: I think 18 months
is completely unacceptable, and I’ve heard that as well, on
many occasions. I think, as children’s commissioner, a big
concern for me is actually the imbalance between children and
adults on this issue. Actually, I take this statistic from your own
report, but we know that the vast majority—I think over 90
per cent—of those waiting more than 18 months for mental
health services are children and young people. That, to me, feels
like a basic inequality that isn’t right. It’s
something that was in our report to the UNCRC, it’s something
that’s come back in the list of issues, because it’s
not, of course, just a Wales issue—it’s a whole UK
issue, and the issues are very similar, right across the UK, and
it’s come back to the UK and the devolved Governments, to
answer to the specific issue of waiting lists. It is waiting lists,
isn’t it, that I mentioned specifically in the list of
issues? I think it’s a huge concern.
|
|
[145]
But,
as I say, we can’t just fix that, we need to fix things
earlier down the line as well. And there are issues in
neuro-developmental disorder as well. I’m really aware that
children and young people often need to wait for a diagnosis to
open up access to other services. But, often, once they have the
diagnosis, there can be a wait then for those, like speech and
language therapy, et cetera. I am constantly raising it. I will be
keeping a close eye on the statistics on this, and we all must see
change. I do feel it’s unacceptable.
|
|
[146]
Ms
Thomas: I think it’s
worth just adding that we were fortunate to have a member of the UN
committee visit Wales in September, and one of the groups of
children and young people she met were young people who were able
to talk about their experiences of mental health services. Both
Sally and the UN committee member were challenged very strongly by
one young man at the end of the session, who said, ‘Are you
going to be like everyone else? We’ve seen you, and
you’re going to go away and we’re not going to see
anything from you again’. The committee member said very
strongly, actually, ‘I will be examining the UK state party
and governments in May/June next year, and I will be asking why
they think it’s acceptable for young people in the UK to be
waiting 18 months to have mental health services’. So,
it’s a very strong message from all quarters that change is
needed.
|
|
[147]
Lynne
Neagle: So, are you
confident that this latest initiative, then, is going to be the one
that means we’re not going to have CAMHS in your report next
year, and the year after, and the year after that?
|
|
[148]
Dr
Holland: It certainly will
be in my report next year, but I hope we’ll be reporting some
progress. I’m really keen—I’ve made this clear to
the Minister, and I think, to be fair, this is his wish as
well—that the current initiative is not just another
restatement of the problems. It has to be solution-focused and it
has to have outcomes. There is some new money that has gone into
services, which is, of course, welcome, Whether it can deliver the
kind of change that we need, I think the jury’s open on that,
at the moment.
|
|
[149]
David
Rees: Okay. Simon, you
also wanted to mention this.
|
|
[150]
Simon
Thomas: Ie,
jest ar y pwynt yna, rŷch chi wedi cyffwrdd ar hwn eisoes, ond
roeddwn i eisiau gofyn ychydig bach yn fwy. Mae’n amlwg nad
yw hwn yn faes sydd wedi’i gyfyngu i Gymru; mae hwn yn faes
dros Brydain gyfan, fel rŷch chi newydd gyfeirio ato, ac yn
faes, efallai, i’r gorllewin, a dweud y gwir. Mae’r
ffaith ein bod ni’n cydnabod anghenion iechyd meddwl ymysg
pobl ifanc ac yn paratoi ar gyfer cwrdd â’r gofynion
yna—chi’n gwybod, mae yna fwlch sylweddol rhwng y cydnabod a’r
paratoi, ac yn enwedig o ran ymyrraeth gynnar, fel rŷch
chi’n ei ddweud. A ydych chi’n cynnal trafodaethau,
felly, gyda chomisiynwyr plant eraill yn y Deyrnas Gyfunol
ynglŷn â’r materion hyn, ac a oes yna unrhyw waith
yn cael ei gydlynu, gan taw’r Deyrnas Gyfunol yw’r
wladwriaeth sy’n atebol o ran yr hawliau, a pha fath o gamau
sy’n cael eu gwneud, felly, i ddod â hwn yn fwy o fater
trafod cyhoeddus? Achos, yn y pen draw, oni bai bod yna drafod
cyhoeddus am y materion hyn, nid oes adnoddau’n cael eu rhoi
i’r broblem, ac nid yw’r gefnogaeth yn cael ei dodi yn
ei lle.
|
Simon
Thomas: Just on this
point, you have mentioned this already, but I wanted to expand on
it. It’s clear that this is an area that is not limited to
Wales; it’s a UK-wide issue, as you’ve just said, and
perhaps, specifically, for the west. The fact that we acknowledge
the needs of young people with mental health issues, and are
preparing to meet those needs—clearly there’s a large
gap there between recognising a problem and preparing to deal with
it, especially regarding early intervention. Are you holding
discussions with other children’s commissioners in the United
Kingdom about this issue? Is there any other work being
co-ordinated, given that the United Kingdom is the accountable area
in relation to rights, and what sort of steps are being taken to
make this an issue for public discussion? Ultimately, without
discussion in the public arena about this, no resources will be put
into the issue and no support will be provided either.
|
|
[151]
Dr
Holland: Yes, I worked
straight away, as soon as I came into office, with the other UK
commissioners, obviously, on a whole range of issues to do with the
UNCRC report on mental health. Actually, when we came to report to
the UNCRC, we split up the issues that we were going to discuss,
and mental health was one of the ones that I offered to present on,
so I genned up on issues on mental health right across the UK, and
that’s why I can confidently say that many of the challenges
are very similar across the UK. There are some different approaches
in terms of responding to that, but they’re very
similar.
|
|
[152]
In
terms of public discussion, I know the UK Youth Parliament has
recently done their own inquiry into it. It’s a very live
issue for young people. They discuss it very openly and it’s
a key concern for young people. Very many of them have either
experienced some kind of mental health problem themselves or they
know someone who has, so it is a key issue for them. In terms of
learning across the UK, I think we should be learning across the UK
and we should be looking wider than that at international evidence
on how we can best help children and young people. There is
evidence that there are some programmes, group therapies,
individual therapies et cetera, which do make a difference and do
help, and we can learn from international reviews of evidence on
that, and we must.
|
|
[153]
I
think we must be careful not to just grasp at any potential
solution, ‘Oh, this looks like an interesting programme,
let’s implement this in all our schools’. I’m
very keen that we work from a strong evidence base. In fact, you
can do more harm than good if you try and implement a group
programme on self-harm, for example, if you’re not doing it
in the right way. There are programmes that we know help with
self-harm and suicide, for example, but we also know there are some
that seem to make the situation worse, so I think we need to learn
from across the UK and internationally on how best to tackle this.
It’s not just a Wales issue.
|
|
[154]
David
Rees: We’ll move
on, then, to Keith.
|
|
[155]
Keith Davies: Wrth
symud ymlaen, os yw CAMHS wedi bod yn broblem i chi—ac
rwy’n edrych ar eich adroddiad chi—yr achosion mwyaf
rŷch chi wedi eu cael yw anghenion addysgol arbennig.
Mae’r broblem honno wedi bod yn mynd am flynyddoedd maith; yn
sicr, yn fy amser i yn y byd addysg, roedd e’n broblem
enfawr. Rŷm ni’n mynd nawr i ddiwygio beth sydd gyda
ni’n barod. Roeddwn i’n darllen—eich adroddiad
chi oedd e, rwy’n credu—lle roedd newid enw, mor belled
ag oedd un plentyn yn y cwestiwn, yn dweud, ‘Wel, nid yw
newid enw yn mynd i wneud dim. Beth yw’r gefnogaeth rŷm
ni’n mynd i’w chael?’. A ydy beth rŷm
ni’n mynd i’w drafod dros y misoedd i ddod yn ddigonol
o ran edrych ar ofynion plentyn? A ydy e’n mynd i effeithio
ar hawliau plant? A ydych chi wedi bod yn edrych ar hyn ar barod?
Rŷm ni, fel pwyllgor, yn sicr yn edrych arno.
|
Keith
Davies: Moving on, if
CAMHS has been a problem for you—and I look at your
report—the largest cases you’ve had is SEN cases, and
that problem has been going on for many years; certainly, when I
was in the field of education, that was a major problem.
We’re going to reform what we have already, and I was
reading—I don’t know if it was your report—that
there was a change of name, as far as one child was concerned.
Well, that change of name is not going to make any difference.
What’s the support that they’re going to have? Is what
we’re going to discuss over the coming months going to be
adequate in terms of looking at children’s requirements? Is
it going to affect the rights of children? Have you been looking at
this already? We as a committee are certainly looking at this
issue.
|
|
[156]
Dr
Holland: Absolutely, I
agree it’s a really important concern, and again, another
issue that’s been a very strong feature of my consultation,
and obviously of my office’s policy work, because
there’s a lot of policy activity, as you indicated, around
special educational needs, which are going to be termed
‘additional learning needs’. Young people are our best
cynics, often, in saying, ‘What difference will that
make?’, and it is a good point, although actually I do agree
that it is a better term, ‘additional learning needs’.
But that young person was quite right to say there’s got to
be a bit more substance than that.
|
|
[157]
I do
support the general thrust of where we’re going with
additional learning needs. I hope we will move forward swiftly in
the new Government to bring forward new legislation. It’s
certainly needed, and I’m pleased that there’s
cross-party support on that, because it would be good for that to
happen, whatever the shape of the new Government in May. There are
some areas that we’d like to see strengthened in terms of the
additional learning needs proposals at the moment. We’d like
to see the UNCRC due-regard duty being there for all people
exercising functions under the Act, to make sure that
children’s views and children’s voices are absolutely
central. I’d like to see a strengthening, really, of duties
for agencies to work together for disabled children and those with
additional learning needs, and this will be an issue again that the
committee’s quite familiar with. I’ve met with many
disabled children and young people and their parents and carers and
professionals working with them since I started in post, and, of
course, one of their key frustrations might be that lots of people
agree with what the child needs, what care they need and what their
educational needs are, but actually there’s a whole big other
step to be done to make sure that everyone agrees who’s going
to provide it, who’s going to pay for it, and when it’s
going to come.
|
|
[158]
So, I
would like to see that there’s guidance about how agencies
should work together in the proposals for the ALN Bill, but
I’d like to see particularly a strengthening of duties about
health services to make sure that there’s statutory guidance
requiring them to work with social services and education services,
to make sure that children don’t get lost between these big
institutions—that there’s a proper joined-up service.
Where it works well, we can see that it can work very well, but, of
course, we want every disabled child across Wales to have the same
level of service.
|
|
[159]
Mr
Dafydd: Mae’n werth nodi hefyd y byddwn ni’n
rhannu’n hymateb i’r ddeddfwriaeth, wrth iddi
ddatblygu, â’r pwyllgor, ac yn cadw mewn
cysylltiad.
|
Mr
Dafydd: It’s also
worth noting that we’ll share our response to the
legislation, as it develops, with the committee, and we’ll be
keeping in contact on this issue.
|
|
[160]
Keith Davies: Mae’n bwysig iawn, achos un o’r pethau yn fy
mhrofiad i yw, ambell waith, os rŷm ni’n mynd i ateb i
ofynion y plentyn, mae’n rhaid i’r plentyn symud 100
milltir neu fwy, ac wedyn, mor belled ag y mae’r teulu yn y
cwestiwn, mae’n gwneud pethau’n anodd iawn.
|
Keith
Davies: It’s very
important, because one of the things in my experience is that,
sometimes, if we’re going to respond to the needs of the
child, the child has to move 100 miles or more, and as far as the
family’s concerned, that makes things very
difficult.
|
|
[161]
David Rees: Okay, thank you.
We move on now to Lynne—do you want to ask a question on the
‘When I’m Ready’ scheme?
|
|
[162]
Lynne
Neagle: Yes, specifically
on housing, you’ve been talking on the radio this morning,
and you made reference to the use of bed-and-breakfast
accommodation for 16 and 17-year-olds, and you’re probably
aware that it’s an issue I’ve highlighted recently for
a group of homelessness charities. The Government has said that
they’re looking at it, but clearly there needs to be a strong
move now from Welsh Government to prevent local authorities using
B&B accommodation. We know that the use is very variable: in
some local authorities, it’s not being used at all, and in
others, the use is very high. I just wanted you to comment on that
and on whether that’s something that you would look to be
taking forward with Welsh Government.
|
|
10:45
|
|
[163]
Dr
Holland: I certainly
don’t think that bed-and-breakfast accommodation is a
suitable place for 16 and 17-year-olds. Whether they’re care
leavers or not, if they need bed-and-breakfast accommodation,
they’re vulnerable and it’s certainly not appropriate.
Of course, young people will say, ‘And it’s not even
bed and breakfast; they don’t even give you any
breakfast.’ I’ve heard young people saying that
they’re really dirty, insecure places, where they have to be
out for many hours in the day and they wander around—these
are vulnerable young people—and there are no cooking
facilities and they’re in poverty. I think we’re all in
agreement that that’s not a suitable situation for children
and young people.
|
|
[164]
What
we need is a really comprehensive housing plan for vulnerable young
people, including care leavers. Young people will have really
varied needs: some will have high support needs and some will just
need somewhere secure to live. So, we need local planning to make
sure that there’s a suitable range of accommodation for
children and young people. Obviously, sometimes, you have
emergencies, but there are some really good examples, for example,
of night-stop accommodation with vetted families, for exactly those
kind of emergencies, which we’d like to see widespread right
across Wales. I met people providing it in Ynys Môn recently
and there are good examples there and in Gwynedd and elsewhere.
There are good alternatives that we should be developing and I just
think that, as a society, we should be saying that this is not
acceptable for our most vulnerable children and young
people.
|
|
[165]
David
Rees: Aled, you wanted
to come in on this section.
|
|
[166]
Aled
Roberts: Cawsom gyfarfod yr wythnos diwethaf efo’r elusennau ac i
ddweud y gwir roedd yn frawychus bod yna ferch—rwy’n
meddwl ei bod hi wedi dweud ei bod yn 15 oed pan gafodd ei rhoi
mewn llety gwely a brecwast—yn dweud ei bod hi wedi cael ei
rhoi mewn llety lle’r oedd yna bobl efo problemau alcohol a
phroblemau cyffuriau, ac roedd yn ymddangos nad oedd unrhyw fath o
brawf wedi’i wneud ynglŷn â diogelwch y plentyn
cyn iddi gael ei rhoi yn y sefyllfa yna. Wrth gofio beth ddywedodd
Lynne, sef bod rhai cynghorau lle nad oes un plentyn wedi cael ei
rhoi yn y fath sefyllfa, eto rwy’n meddwl fod Cyngor Sir
Bwrdeistref Merthyr Tydfil, fel enghraifft, wedi rhoi dros 60 y
cant o bobl ifanc ynddi.
|
Aled
Roberts: We had a meeting
last week with the charities and to tell the truth it was
frightening that a girl—I think she said she was 15 years old
when she was placed into bed-and-breakfast accommodation—was
saying that she had been placed in accommodation where there were
people with alcohol problems and drug problems, and it appeared
that no kind of test was done regarding her safety before she was
put in that position. Remembering what Lynne said, namely that
there are some authorities, where no children have been put in that
position, yet I think that Merthyr Tydfil County Borough Council,
as an example, has put over 60 per cent of young people into
it.
|
|
[167]
Felly, rwy’n tybio bod yna ffaeleddau systemig yn rhai
o’r adrannau tai yma ac, i ddweud y gwir, o fewn rhai
o’r adrannau gwasanaethau cymdeithasol yn yr awdurdodau yna.
Felly, a fyddech yn barod i edrych ar y ffigurau lle mae yna
orddefnydd yn cael ei wneud o lety gwely a brecwast? Nid wyf yn
meddwl bod hynny’n dderbyniol, hyd yn oed ar gyfer pobl ifanc
sy’n 16 neu 17. Ond i feddwl bod yna blant 14 oed yn cael eu
rhoi yn y fath sefyllfa—rwy’n meddwl fod hynny’n
achos pryder i ni fel Aelodau Cynulliad.
|
So, I assume that
there are systemic failures in some of these housing departments
and, to tell you the truth, within some of the social services
departments in those authorities. So, would you be prepared to look
at those figures, where too much use is made of bed-and-breakfast
accommodation? I don’t think that that’s acceptable,
even for young people who are 16 or 17 years old. But to think that
14-year-olds are being put in that situation—I think
that’s definitely a matter of concern for us as Assembly
Members.
|
|
[168]
Dr
Holland: Absolutely. That
is a concern in the report. I’ve not had any cases of
children under the age of 16 being brought to my
attention.
|
|
[169]
Aled
Roberts: This was a young
girl from Denbighshire who stood up in a meeting.
|
|
[170]
Dr
Holland: Okay. I have
certainly heard many young people talking about how frightened they
felt about other adults in the accommodation that they’ve
been in.
|
|
[171]
There
was a really useful report published this week by the Public Policy
Institute for Wales. It was actually about care leavers, but their
suggestion for how we move forward in terms of having a
comprehensive plan for housing for vulnerable young people, I
think, is a useful one. Those reports by the institute are
commissioned by the Government, so I hope the Government will be
looking at the recommendations there. I think there’s a real
opportunity for the third sector, for housing associations and for
housing departments to work closely with children’s services
to make sure that they plan adequately for the needs of the local
population. If some local authorities are having to use bed and
breakfast so regularly and so systematically, then they should be
able to anticipate that, and they should be able to provide
alternatives. We do have good examples from other local
authorities. I think an important part of my role is to ensure that
children and young people have a consistent service across Wales.
We don’t just want pockets of good practice. We need to have
children and young people having the same rights and entitlements
wherever they live in Wales.
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[172]
Aled
Roberts: A
gaf i jest symud at un maes arall, sef tlodi plant? Roeddech yn
cyfeirio yn gynharach bod hwn yn achos o bryder i ni, ac
rwy’n siŵr bod pob Aelod yma yn rhannu’r pryder
hwnnw. Rwy’n derbyn mai dim ond un cyfarfod yr ydych wedi ei
gael hyd yma efo’r Gweinidog penodol sydd yn gyfrifol am
dlodi plant, ond a ydych yn meddwl bod gennych ddigon o gyfle i
gynnal trafodaeth efo’r Gweinidog ynglŷn â’r
cynnydd y mae angen ei wneud? Mae yna sôn am gael cynllun
gweithredol penodol ar gyfer tlodi plant yn y dyfodol. A ydych
chi’n fodlon erbyn hyn bod yna ddigon o egni yn cael ei roi i
mewn i’r broses honno, ac a ydych yn meddwl bod gennych ran
allweddol i’w chwarae wrth ddatblygu’r cynllun
gweithredol penodol?
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Aled
Roberts: Can I just move to
one other area, namely child poverty? You referred earlier that
this is a matter of concern for us, and I am sure that all Members
here share that concern. I accept that you have had only one
meeting thus far with the specific Minister responsible for child
poverty, but do you think that you have sufficient opportunity to
have discussions with the Minister in relation to the progress that
needs to be made? There is talk of a specific action plan for child
poverty in the future. Are you now satisfied that sufficient energy
is being put into that process, and do you think that you will have
a key part to play in developing that particular plan?
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[173]
Dr
Holland: Certainly, child
poverty and the Government’s response to it is on the agenda
for our meeting on the twenty-fifth, and I’m looking forward
to having quite an in-depth conversation with the Minister about
the issues. Obviously, there are lots of levels where child poverty
is tackled, and lots of different levers. So, obviously, I’ve
publicly, with the other children’s commissioners, expressed
concern about some of the UK developments in terms of child tax
credit and changes to how child poverty will be measured; but the
Welsh Government itself has levers for tackling child poverty and
they are the ones that I’ll be particularly talking to the
Minister about. There are the specific programmes, which I want to
discuss with her, particularly Flying Start and its coverage, and
other anti-poverty programmes, but I would also like to see a more
specific plan on child poverty, with more specific goals and
outcomes for children from the Government.
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[174]
Aled
Roberts: Can I raise one
other issue? The Public Accounts Committee has been looking at
welfare reform in general and some of the issues that you raise. I
think one of the major concerns currently is the changes,
basically, to housing benefit for 16 and 17-year-olds. There was
concern that neither the Welsh Government nor local authorities had
any understanding, really, of the scale of the potential impact of
those changes. Are you content yourself that there’s
sufficient data held because, obviously, all we can do is respond
to the changes that are implemented at a UK level, but without
knowing what the impact, or the potential impact, of those changes
are, it’s quite difficult to plan.
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[175]
Dr
Holland: You’re
right. That’s a really important analysis that must be done.
I can’t say off the top of my head whether I’m
satisfied. I would have to look at those data. But I will raise
that issue with the Minister when I meet her in three weeks’
time.
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[176]
David
Rees: Do any other
Members have questions? Simon.
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[177]
Simon Thomas: Rydym yn sgubo lan ychydig fân bethau, efallai, nawr,
ond pethau sydd yn dal i fod yn bwysig, ac y maent wedi’u
nodi yn eich adroddiad. Mewn ateb gynnau i mi ynglŷn ag iechyd
meddwl, roeddech yn sôn am waith Senedd Ieuenctid y Deyrnas
Gyfunol. Mae’n amlwg bod y penderfyniad i dynnu’r
gefnogaeth ar gyfer senedd i bobl ifanc yng Nghymru, yn benodol, a
dodi yn ei lle gynllun cyfranogiad—fel mae’n cael ei
alw, rwy’n credu—i gael ei wneud gan blant yng Nghymru.
Mae’r adroddiad blynyddol yn nodi pryder ynglŷn
â’r datblygiad yna. Ers hynny, a ydych chi wedi cynnal
trafodaethau ar y cynllun newydd, ac a ydych chi o’r farn bod
y cynllun hwn yn mynd i roi llais i bobl ifanc yn y broses
ddemocrataidd ac mewn ffordd sy’n ystyrlon iddynt hwy, nid yn
unig fel bod eich swydd chi yn ymateb i broblemau neu fethiannau yn
y system, ond fel bod llais pobl ifanc yn cael ei gynnwys yn y
ffordd y mae penderfyniadau yn cael eu gwneud ar draws cymunedau
cyfan lle maent yn byw?
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Simon
Thomas: We are sweeping up
on some of minor issues now, perhaps, but important issues no less,
and they have been noted in your report. In an earlier response to
me about mental health, you were talking about the work of the UK
Youth Parliament. It’s evident that the decision to withdraw
support for a youth parliament in Wales, in particular, and put in
its place a participation scheme—as it’s called, I
think—to be done by children in Wales. The annual report
notes concern about that development. Since then, have you held
discussions on the new scheme, and are you of the opinion that this
scheme is going to give young people a voice in the democratic
process and in a way that’s meaningful to them, not only so
that your office responds to problems or failings in the system,
but so that the voice of young people is included in the way in
which decisions are made across whole communities where these young
people live?
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[178]
Dr
Holland: Yes, it’s
another important issue I’ve had lots of discussions with
young people about since I took up office. I think it’s
important—. You referred to the funding of Young Wales, which
I think is a really useful initiative, but I think we need to
understand—. I think it’s too new to say what impact
it’s going to have yet, but I think it’s important to
understand what it is and what it isn’t. I mean, it
is—
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[179]
Simon
Thomas: I hope you know
that because I don’t have a clue what it is.
[Laughter.]
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[180]
Dr
Holland: My understanding
is that it’s a mechanism for children and young people to be
involved in the programme for government. It’s a chance for
Government to be able to consult with children and young people,
including those who have some particular expertise in some areas,
due to their life experiences. I think, of course, that’s
very welcome. It’s of course different from having a
representative platform for children and young people to
particularly bring up their own issues that are
important—
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[181]
Simon
Thomas: Where they set the
agenda themselves.
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[182]
Dr
Holland: Absolutely—what’s
important to them. I think, when we’re thinking about that,
we need to think about it at all levels. You refer to local
democratic structures as well, and I think that we can only get it
right at a national level if we also get it right at a local
level—and not even just at a local authority level, but at
what I’d call a hyperlocal level. On some housing estates,
for example, we’ve got some really good examples of youth
work done, perhaps not in very formal ways, but where young people
are given a voice and are expressing it very clearly. I can think
of an example on the Gurnos estate, for example, where young people
are expressing a view very clearly.
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[183]
We
need to get participation right in schools. There are some really
excellent examples around Wales of school councils working well and
young people getting really good experience of participating
through school councils, but that is patchy—that’s what
children and young people are telling me and what I’m
observing. We then need to get it right at local authority level,
because all of these feed into—. We’ll only get good
local authority representation if children and young people have
had good experience at a very local level, perhaps in schools, and,
again, there are some very strong local authorities—youth
councils, for example—but it would be good to see that
systematically strong right across Wales.
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[184]
We can
build a strong national platform for children and young people if
we have it right locally. An issue for young people in local
authority-level participation structures is that there are some
issues that their local authority can’t deal with because
they’re issues that should be dealt with nationally. So,
they’ve got nowhere to take them if they don’t have a
national platform. So, I would be in support of us developing a
national platform for children and young people. And it’s a
logical conclusion of those participation structures.
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[185]
Simon
Thomas: Indeed, and for
young people to be able to set their own agenda. I can’t even
remember the name—what’s the new programme called
again?
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[186]
Dr
Holland: Young
Wales.
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[187]
Simon
Thomas: Young Wales. The
Government should be consulting with young people about its
programme for government anyway. Using third sector money to get
engagement to do that, I think, is a little bit of a deception,
shall we say? That’s my view. But what we’re missing
now is that formal structure, which also engages with Assembly
Members directly and not just Government.
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[188]
Dr
Holland: Absolutely. And to
engage—
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[189]
Simon
Thomas: Is that something
to be reflected—? Do you think that’s coming up in your
consultation already? That’s what I wanted to ask. Is that
something that—[Inaudible.]
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[190]
Dr
Holland: I ask about it in
the consultation. I can’t tell you the survey results yet,
but it’s certainly something that has come up in the
qualitative phase, where I did talk to a thousand children and
young people, so it was quite a big qualitative phase, and it
certainly did come up and some young people are really very vocal
about it. Some others are fairly uninterested—a bit like the
general population, really, in terms of how interested people are
in politics or issues in general. But unless children and young
people have a good experience of participation, then they’re
not going to demand more. I do think it’s
necessary.
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[191]
I
think the Assembly itself has done some really good work in
engaging children and young people. The Vote@16 programme was a
really good example of young people being involved in the Assembly,
and I’ve had constructive discussions with the Presiding
Officer about moving forward to developing a stronger platform from
that work, really, and I think the Assembly would be a good place
to house a young people’s assembly, a young people’s
parliament, for Wales. It would be a place for the Assembly to be
held to account, as well as the Government, and, indeed, for myself
to be, because it would be a national platform to hold me to
account as well. I would look forward to, but with some
trepidation, having to stand in front of them.
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[192]
David
Rees: Okay. Time is
almost upon us. Lynne’s got the last question.
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11:00
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[193]
Lynne
Neagle: Yes, it was just
on social services, which you’ve highlighted in your report.
Your predecessor had a lot of misgivings about the Social Services
and Well-being (Wales) Act 2014, and the people-centred nature of
that Act, which I’d quite a lot of sympathy for, actually.
Now that we’re taking forward the implementation—I know
that your office is involved in the implementation—are you
reassured that these concerns are going to be addressed?
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[194]
Dr
Holland: So, the Act will
be implemented, obviously, from April, and I know local authorities
are busily working on their plans. I’m trying to keep a
strong message going that children must stay central to social
services plans and that we need to see clear, specific plans for
children and young people, and it’s something that I will
continue to monitor as we move towards implementation. I have good
links with children and young people’s groups who use
services and their carers, so I think we will be getting some
strong feedback on how that’s going, and also, of course,
with providers, and I’ve had constructive discussions with
the Minister about it. One of the issues that I’ve discussed
with him and with many other providers of social services is
whether one opportunity offered by the Act, which is to improve the
transition from child to adult services, which we’ve been
talking about already—not to have this big divide, in a way,
between child and adult services—whether that’s one
advantage that we might see from the Act. So, I’ll be
monitoring very closely whether children and young people are
expected to go through a whole new assessment, a whole new
threshold again, when they reach adult services, which they
shouldn’t, in theory, now under the Act. So, I will be
monitoring that very closely. That could be one advantage of the
people model of the social services Act. I do support a lot of the
principles behind the social services Act, but I share my
predecessor’s concern that there’s a risk that
children’s specific needs might get swamped by the really
overwhelming needs of the adult social care population.
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[195]
Lynne
Neagle: Okay, thank
you.
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[196]
David
Rees: Thank you very
much. We’ve come now to the end of our time allocation, so
can I thank you very much for your time this morning and for the
evidence you provided to the committee? It’s been very
helpful for us to explore those avenues. Thank you once again. You
will receive a transcript of the meeting, and, if there are any
factual inaccuracies, please let us know as soon as
possible.
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[197]
Dr
Holland: Okay.
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[198]
David
Rees: Thank you very
much.
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[199]
Dr
Holland: Diolch yn fawr
iawn—thank you very much.
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11:02
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Papurau i’w Nodi
Papers to Note
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[200]
David
Rees: The committee will
now move on to item 3, which are papers to note. We have three
papers to note. The additional information from the Central South
Consortium Joint Education Service following its meeting with the
committee on 16 September—happy to note that? The additional
information from Education through Regional Working following its
meeting with the committee on 24 September—happy to note
that? And the letter from the Minister for Education and Skills
following his meeting with the committee on 30 September,
discussing the regional education consortia—are you happy to
note that? Thank you very much.
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Cynnig o dan Reol
Sefydlog 17.42 i Benderfynu Gwahardd y Cyhoedd o Weddill y Cyfarfod
hwn ac o’r Cyfarfod yn ei Gyfanrwydd ar 12
Tachwedd
Motion under Standing Order 17.42 to Resolve to Exclude the Public
from the Remainder of this Meeting and the Whole of the Meeting on
12 November
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Cynnig:
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Motion:
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bod
y pwyllgor yn penderfynu gwahardd y cyhoedd o weddill y cyfarfod,
a’r cyfarfod ar 12 Tachwedd, yn unol â Rheolau Sefydlog
17.42(vi) a (ix).
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that
the committee resolves to exclude the public from the remainder of
the meeting, and the meeting on 12 November, in accordance with
Standing Orders 17.42(vi) and (ix).
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Cynigiwyd y cynnig.
Motion moved.
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[201]
David
Rees: We move on now to
item 4, a motion under Standing Order 17.42(ix) to resolve to
exclude the public from the remainder of the meeting and from the
whole of the meeting on 12 November. Are Members content? Then
we’ll move into private session. Thank you.
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Derbyniwyd y cynnig.
Motion agreed.
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Daeth rhan gyhoeddus y cyfarfod i ben am
11:03.
The public part of
the meeting ended at 11:03.
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